Rejoinder to Welshman and Attila

By the time I came back I find that both the threads: What I really meant as well as Feudal languages having gone through a route which again has nothing to do with my contentions.

I wish to answer to Welshman and to Attila.

However, the scenario that presents in the debate position in both the threads is so much different from what I have in my mind that I need to start afresh.

First of all, I need to say this: Actually in terms of sheer numbers, the people of England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland etc. do not count to much when viewed from the world perspective. Hence I cannot confine my debate to comparisons between these linguistic groups.

Moreover, the debate seems to have gone to the territory of DNA and chromosomes, and to the connecting of languages to some genetic hereditary.

Now the question of what happens to a person of say pure non-English breed growing up in a complete English environment since birth. Or for that matter in any genetically unconnected language. Does anything other than mere outward language change? Maybe I can come with some startling themes in a few days time.

Welshman: What I really meant

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The French influence on language in Britain is far more noticeable in Scotland than it is in England –

Welshman: What I really meant

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The Scots were very much more heavily influenced by France, speaking a mixture of Gaelic (Celtic) and French up until their own conquest by the English.

I am deeply impressed that even though I did not know about this, it has much bearing on my contentions. I do know that you would not understand what I am speaking about.

Attila

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I apologise, I didn’t know your forefathers were forced to speak English - I jumped to the conclusion that it was economic purposes, like Ireland.

Could it be same as saying that Indians are forced to study English? Only a really stupid Indian would not know the advantages of having capacity in English. English demolishes the social strangulation on an ordinary Indian, and also improves the communicability of many.

Attila: Feudal languages

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There is only one Russian Language, and it is Russian.

Actually what I meant was the languages in the erstwhile Soviet Union.

Attila: Feudal languages

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the linguistic meaning of ‘feudal’ still escapes me, I confess)

I must say that this term I did not take from any textbook, but used it to denote a singular thing I found in many languages, which is definitely not there in English. From a comparative study of social and historical effects, I would predict that this phenomenon is in existence in many other languages.

Now let me start explaining a minor theme: it is about what I would term: Vernacular English. It is not something you may have any experience in over there. Why I am bringing this theme is to briefly demark the areas, which do not belong to areas of my debate:

I would try to be very brief, for fear of exceeding word counts.

You see in India, English exists in various forms, but the form that is emerging with full force is the ‘vernacular English’, for it is the one that is increasingly being taught in schools by teachers who more or less exists in a pure vernacular mental mood.

One of the major effects of this is the contortion of pronunciation of English words to suit the sounds that emanate when English words are written in Indian languages: Thus, War becomes vaar, was: vaas, Is: ees, water: vater; road: roade; what: vaat; that: tdat; and almost all other English words are subjected to similar changes. Now do not confuse this issue with accent. For the problem of accent is different from that of distorted pronunciations.

However, this is not the real threat to English. Vernacular English inherently carries the feudal insecurities of the vernacular languages. For example, in certain schools, teachers should not be addressed with a ‘you’, or referred to with a ‘he’ or ‘she’, nor should any senior-teacher, elder, social superior etc- be addressed with a ‘Mr.’ or ‘Mrs.’ nor with a ‘Miss’.

For example, if a teacher by name Andrew is addressed by anyone, other than his real superior, as ‘Mr. Andrew’, it would create real ripples in the social fabric. Students refer to him as Andrew sir, or worse Andrew sar. (Even when talking in English).

Female teachers or anyone superior are to be addressed and also referred to as Madam, so that a Mrs. Mary Andrews would be referred to Mary Madam. Instead of saying She gave me this book, the student would say: Mary Madam gave me this book. The problem is that in a few sentences the words Mary Madam would go on cropping up a number of times. It would be a bit tormenting to the speaker but there is no way out. It comes in a package of many other hierarchical words, existing in the vernacular.

The word ‘Miss’ is also used as a social title.

When the student says: you gave me this, the sentence becomes Madam gave me this. Or Mary Madam gave me this.

However, I have found that individual persons, who move to the superior English social and professional world, drop out these impediments to communication, as they get used to the more freer version of English. Nevertheless, it is a matter of numbers. That is, who is in the majority? The vernacular English persons or the other. Also, who is the boss? The vernacular English person or the other.

Sad to say, the negative version is becoming more and more stronger, and it is now seen in almost all areas of functioning, very much so in the bureaucracy.

However, all this has very little to do with the theme that I am trying to convey.

In the next few days, I would try to post on these themes:

one, a remarkable experiment on the effects of English (with no feudal fittings), on a person’s bearing.

Second, on a theme I read recently in the Reader’s Digest. It is about an English woman who had married a Palestinian man. He later left her, and many years later, when the woman and her children went to visit him in Palestine, his family forced the children to remain there, and forcibly sent her back. The theme does have a strange connection to a part of my book, as I wrote it many years ago.

Third, on my experiences as I tried to follow-up my ideas.

Attila What I really meant

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However, you are right to point out the dangers of leaping to conclusions about ethnicity by studying Language alone.

Welshman: What I really meant

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Otherwise I will assume you are either simply trolling or merely trying to generate book sales.

I would say that there is a definite amount of very original understandings in my book, and it does keep away from being dry scholarly book. If linguistic studies have not arrived at this scene, I would propose that it is high time it did.

My first writing was done in 1989. Then also, I did find the question of what to do with my understandings very, very baffling. It still remains so.

Continued

May I say that I have not come with combative aims? My aim is, along with debate, conveying of a message.

Attila

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Am I a suitable guinea-pig? Which characteristics or changes from my kinsfolk should I possess?

I hope not! A better ‘guinea-pig’ would be a black, or anyone from non-White ancestry. For, in the case of whites, many changes can be easily camouflaged and sort to be connected to unforeseeable factors. And in the case of non-Whites like many Asians and Blacks, generally the negative connotation, if any, of ‘guinea pig’ for living in an English circumstance would not exist.

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Attila

Ah! The languages of the former USSR are more numerous and varied than those of the rest of Europe, and one would need several lifetimes of study before attaching any characteristics shared or displayed by the various speakers.

In India, there are many, many languages, some of them of unconnected ancestry; certain features can be identified, without learning them. In the case of the Russian languages also, the local natives could have some idea of the social design of many varying languages.

Attila

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The above refers to two problems known to those teaching and learning any language - not just English.

There are a variety of ways, people in non-English nations get to know English. And the results can be different.

Attila

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The second, the over-politeness of ‘Mary Madam’ is culture specific, and again probably independent of the language being studied. For example, Korean kids are so focussed on politeness and correctness that if one has been beaten to a pulp by other kids and is crying, they often answer “Are you OK?” with “Yes-I’m-fine-thank-you-sir! And-how-are-you-today?” through their tears.

I would contend that there is a certain amount of un-understanding of the terms in Korean is there in your illustration. The problem is that when sentences, and words get translated into English, there is a deleting of the social designs in that language, happening.

In a particular area in my book there is these words: I am quoting:

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———————————————————————————————Yet, these are not just strings, but actually lines of forces, with very impelling powers of pulling, pushing, crushing, coaxing, coercing, intimidating and also subduing. If these lines which envelope a person can be made visible by any medium, any person in a feudal language social condition would be found to be in a maze of strings, each of them contorting his personality in various manners. Some would also have forces emanating from him to subdue, coax, pull and push others. Yet, just like a file in MSWord program, when pasted in Adobe PageMaker Program in the Text format, loses all lines, tables, drawing etc.; when a person from a feudal language system is transferred to an English social program area, all these lines would vanish into thin air.

Attila

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I don’t quite understand what you are citing it for.

Actually, the theme was taken up by me to demark the way the debate had gone astray from what I was conveying. For example, where I was talking about ‘feudal content and designs’ in certain languages, the debate had gone to the arena of accent and pronunciation and of influx of foreign words into English.

Welshman: What I really meant

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The Welsh, because I am one of them

Attila:

Attila

I am ALMOST ‘pure non-English breed - all of my blood relatives going back several centuries are Irish

I have been intrigued by the fact that at times, some Irish, Welsh, and Scots persons do exhibit an aversion to their English links. I hope you do not feel so.

It is a link many in world would view with envy.

For, what other connection could be more desirable? Imagine the scenario if these tiny nations are linked to many other nations, I would not like to name here!!!

Yet all this debate and talk still leaves me with the same feeling of an a being who cannot communicate with another being. For, what I try to convey seem entirely beyond the imagination of you people!!!

There is an essential difference between me and several others over there, in that I sit in a scenario of which you debate with very vague understandings. What I state is not my imagination.

Continued

Attila wrote:

For example, Korean kids are so focussed on politeness and correctness that if one has been beaten to a pulp by other kids and is crying, they often answer “Are you OK?” with “Yes-I’m-fine-thank-you-sir! And-how-are-you-today?” through their tears.

It is not in the culture, but in the fine lines encoded in the language that delineates the routes of communication and parameters of mental processes.

When these strange codes get to interact with English codes, the results would depend on a variety of settings.

Continued:

I dont come here nowadays. The main reason is lack of time. However another shooting took place in the University of Alabama, in the USA.

I thought I should write something. Even though no one may see a link in all these incidences, I do. In Australia, suddenly there has been a lot of attacks on others, which have been defined as racially motivated. What is suddenly happening? Is it all isolated incidences?

Well, I can’t gloat and say that I had predicted all this in a book I wrote some thirty years back. But then, there was a particular incident in my own life, which I wanted to write much about. But then, I will give it here in brief.

As an experiment, I had brought up my daughter in perfect English ambience, for many years. That is not the theme here. One day, into our English teaching place, a woman who had been to Australia came. Her husband was working in the IT sector there, and though this pay was possibly small over there, when converted into Indian currency, it was quite a formidable sum.

She came and said that she was going back to Australia in a couple of months time. She wanted to learn English. It may be mentioned that the major part of English teaching in my office was done in a form of interaction with my children.

As we were conversing, this woman saw my daughter sitting and reading at a table. She said in the vernacular: What is she doing?’

Well, in English it may not have any issues. But then, in the local vernacular, the word used for ‘She’ ‘Her’ etc for children are what one uses for menial servants. In many ways, the affect can depend on who uses these words on whom. These words do have tremendous effect and can really create terrible changes in a person’s expression and physical features.

When I meant that I was extending a perfect English ambience to my children and to many others who had come to train under me, what I really meant was to keep my children and my other trainees away from the sting of these words. The effect was perfectly visible.

Now, when my daughter heard the words, even though she couldn’t understand the exact words, I could feel that she was feeling uncomfortable.

I immediately told the woman that when she is trying to learn English, these type of outputs should be avoided. I told her of the effects and she agreed. There was another admission of very ominous proportions. I asked her, ‘If you use such words about others in Australia, among your family members, aren’t you actually not spoiling the people and the society over there? Would there not be some negative reaction to it’. She pondered over my question and then told me in a very contemplative manner, ‘Yes, it would create problems for the local people there.’

Now, there is a lot of anti-Indian reactions going on there. I would suggest that it would be a very good idea for the English nations to think about these negative codes and encode the banning of such languages that create ruptures in the social system as a part of the immigration act. In other words, discriminate, discriminate heavily against languages which have discriminating codes within them. Do it before the society gets fragmented and many other social negativity that haunts Asian nations get sharply embedded in English nations.